Julie Glassberg, the French award-winning documentary and portrait photographer living and working in Paris, France, the US and Asia spoke to Yogesh Pawar for Samyak Drishti aout her fascination with the subaltern, her work wiith biker gangs, her column at The New York Times and her take on the cartoons and the attacks in France.

So much of your work draws on the diversity of world cultures, subcultures, the intersectional, underground scenes as well as what some might call ‘the misfits of society.’ Why are you fascinated with the subaltern?

Well, I have never really liked the “norm” as a set standard for living. But that started very early on, as a kid. I never felt I fit in. Whatever was expected by society of a little girl, was just not my thing…

Now, being a woman, gay, and pursuing the art life, I am by definition out of the norm. I can’t identify to the norm as society has planted it.

What is beautiful about growing up is that you progressively learn that it’s completely okay to not fit or follow that norm. You can live just as well, and nobody should make you follow it or force you to fit in.

I started getting interested in subcultures as a teenager. Rebellious subcultures such as the punk scene or underground scenes appealed to me. For their philosophy and music. It was a way for me to meet and spend time with those outsiders and misfits and feel less lonely.

Today, I am interested in subcultures for various reasons. I kept that fascination for what society considers rotten, ugly, for outcasts, because I’ve met some of the most amazing people among outcasts. Some of the biggest, most open minds.

Although I don’t relate with everyone or everything that those subcultures stand for, I can relate to those who feel a rejection or treatment differentiation from a normalised society. It gives me a particular empathy in this context. Maybe, in the beginning, it was even a survival thing and therapeutically for me to meet as many outcasts as possible, to make it okay in my own head first. The people who live their lives differently have huge courage that I find inspiring. Hopefully, by showing this, it can inspire many others as well as open some minds. If I can make even just one person see them differently and open their minds to something new and different, realize that their fears were unfounded, then I am happy.

I am fascinated by humans and their behaviours, and the more I evolve, the more I realise things are never binary. A lot of conflicts and rejections are because of fear, ignorance and miscommunication. I also realised that no matter how hard I work on something and how much I put my heart into it to do things right, there will always be someone who dislikes it. But that is never a reason to stop.

What is interesting for me within a long-term photography project, is that you can’t go in with preconceived ideas (whether they are good or bad). You have to go with an open mind and discover along the way to learn about human nature in different worlds. If you think you know, then you cannot learn.

You spent close to three years documenting bike gangs. Do you find subjects like those so immersive? How do you ensure that ennui doesn’t hit you?

For a bit over 3 years I followed the Black Label Bike Club. Other clubs were blending in at times, but that’s the club I mainly followed as well as their “extended family”.

When I heard about those guys, I got fascinated right away. It was a way of life and community I had never heard of before, so it was quite exciting to me. Of course, I first got intrigued by the craziness and the action, like a lot of people, because it’s easy to be drawn to the sensational. But it was really important to spend enough time to go beyond that first layer and observe the intimacy and human aspects that are not always so obvious, because those are universal, and those make humans connect.

Ennui never hit me. Of course, I wasn’t photographing 24/7, and some days/weeks, I didn’t even take one photo. But spending time with people and having an exchange to establish a form of trust and mutual respect is just as important, if not more, than making the images. I don’t find calm moments boring. On the contrary, I cherish them. That is when time slows down. I don’t get bored easily anyway… I find every step of the process important. I enjoy to observe and almost not exist in a
situation as much as I enjoy a genuine conversation with a person. Every little part is meaningful. Even boredom, if it happens, is useful. It’s part of life.

The Metropolitan section of The New York Times assigned you with staff reporter Corey Kilgannon, to photograph portraits for the weekly column Character Study. How did you arrive at these characters?

Ha! That was one of the best experiences I had as a photographer in NYC!! Nikko, the Metro editor who assigned us together knew from the beginning we’d be a great match, and he was on point! Corey and I hit it off right away! Corey himself is a character.

In the beginning, we drove and walked around neighbourhoods of the five boroughs (Corey knows the city on his fingertips), talking to as many people as possible and searching for interesting characters. It’s not easy! That’s what makes those characters so special in fact. One day, we took a car, a small private plane and a boat to get to the character! So many crazy, atypical and unexpected experiences…

Some weeks were better than others. It was a weekly column so we had to come up with someone every single week no matter what. We did, but obviously, some were way more interesting than others. New York has plenty of amazing characters but they’re not easy to find on-demand.

It lasted for a couple of years, but every great adventure needs to have an end.

It was a true partnership. Corey and I worked really well together and he became a dear friend.

After seven years in New York you shifted for a year to Tokyo and then Shanghai for six months where you extensively experimented and collaborated with local photographers. Did you detect a signature regional style and what was your takeaway from both these Asian
stints?

I didn’t collaborate with photographers really, but I did meet a lot of photographers in Japan. I have a big interest in Japanese photography and their approach to the medium.

In terms of collaboration though, I wanted to play with other media and artistic forms. In Japan, I did a lot of collaborations with a dyeing artist (specialist of Indigo dye) who silkscreened some of my photos on fabrics and dyed them. I also collaborated with a theatre director to promote his new play. Those were fantastic experiences that allowed me to expand my brain to many more ways of using photography.

I must say, I come from a graphic design background as well, so I have been sensitised and educated to many other art forms. I find them very important influences and often complementary.

In Shanghai, I did an art residency organized by Swatch: I was surrounded by composers, musicians, film directors, designers, writers, painters, sculptors from all around the world. I crave for experiences like this. I want to be exposed to as many forms of expression and cultures as possible.

Both those locations had a big impact on me as a person and a photographer.

I first fell in love with Japan in 2012 during a two-month artist residency in Tokyo. I then went again in 2015 for a year to live there. During that year, I met so many inspiring people. In addition to collaborations, I was able to conceive my book! This is where the dummy was made, during a photobook masterclass, which later resulted in the artist book, and later on the trade edition (almost 10 years after I started the project). Japan is such a special place for bookmaking. I also started a new personal project on the Dekotora culture, a Japanese subculture. I went back again last summer for 3 months to pursue this project.

In China, I was in Shanghai the whole time, so I can’t say I know China. I also find 6 months short for really knowing much, but it’s a fair time to have a first impactful impression. Also, the fact that I was in a residency was not really like living in Shanghai. We were in a bubble. A building full of artists in the most visited neighbourhood of the city. There, I collaborated a lot with a composer, and the conversations and exchanges I’ve had with the other residents are invaluable. Some have become good friends and an important part of my life. The great thing about the central place of the residency and not having a definite project was that I walked around the city a lot. I visited many neighbourhoods and went back to my first love – photography: street photography. I was happy to go back to those roots, those pictures taken by instinct, without a specific intention, goal or message. It was refreshing. This way, I also stumbled upon a very old traditional Shanghai opera that I started photographing regularly until the day I left.

At a time when personalities from the world of politics, business and glamour seem to hog most space in the media, why is it important to highlight faces and subjects from everyday life to capture the slice of life?

Life itself, in its most simple way, is already fascinating, poetic, dramatic and full of surprises. It seems that there is a global larger interest for sparks, fame and spotlights, but I find it way more interesting to spend time with people in their real-life environment. People are much more similar than they think. I am highly interested in authenticity and it is not in a controlled environment that you find that.

Politicians, celebrities, businessmen have to play a role. They put on a mask, create an image, create a story that they think people want to see or hear. Almost nothing is real about what they show to the public. This is why it is so important to highlight people from everyday life. They do not seem so far away, so unreachable. They have very little filters. Whether they are doing amazing inspiring things or living dramas, it offers diversified interpretations of real-life through the world. Those people are just as important and meaningful.

Whenever I have to photograph a famous personality, I really try to dive in and find something authentic in the exchange we have, because beyond that polished public image they want to give, there is also a regular man or woman. But with all the people around them to help them control their image, it is quite difficult and sometimes impossible to find that regular person in them (or to even be allowed to show it!)

I really put everyone I photograph on the same level. A taxi driver in the city, a homeless guy in Central Park, or a piano tuner in Harlem is just as important as a world-famous soccer player. I try to reflect that as much as possible.

Could you recount your most challenging work to date and elaborate on why you thought it was challenging…

Both my long-term projects were challenging.

They were challenging for many reasons:

• You are your only motor, and it is not always easy to keep motivated or keep the self-confidence
• They cost money and you are your own financer (I received some help for Bike Kill from Lucie Scholarship and Getty Images Grant for Documentary photography which helped a bit, but gaining those types of grants is a bit like winning the lottery)
• Even if you try your best to do good ethically and fairly, some people can dislike or get offended by what you do (It happened with the book for Bike Kill: some people from the club, even if a tiny minority, were against it and made it very complicated. The book exists for all the other people who deserved it as a homage and a thank you.)
• Things don’t always happen as you hope. For my last trip to Japan, I knew three months would go by really fast, and I tried to plan months ahead for a few reports and portrait sessions. Well, when I got there, it was like I had done nothing. They were extremely friendly, but as most of them don’t have regular schedules and also because of the language barrier (I have been learning Japanese but I am terrible at it, and got help from friends to communicate), nothing was organised. As a consequence, it took quite a while to get started and I couldn’t shoot or meet anyone for the first three weeks. It taught me to keep my cool because I was slowly getting into a panic mode: “I am not on vacation, it’s costing me so much money, I’m making zero pictures and my time is extremely limited”. In the end, I didn’t get everything I needed, but I also got many things that I was not even thinking of getting, so it compensated. I knew I had to stay open, patient, flexible, and persistent. Although it was quite stressful, it paid off.

Your first book was recently shortlisted by Paris Photo / Aperture and has since completely sold out. Were you expecting such a tumultuous response?

Not at all… Even when the artist book sold out I was surprised, and there were only 25 copies!

What surprised me the most is the diversity of people touched by this story. I really thought it would only be interesting to the same outcasts (young or old) that I’m interested in, but not at all! It speaks to people from so many different backgrounds, so many different life experiences and lifestyles. I find that quite encouraging. When I saw that, I told myself “THAT is why I do what I do”.

I think people could see very universal aspects of human nature, as well as a philosophy and a way of life that they can relate to, or at least that they can understand. This world might look crazy on the surface, just seeing the chaos, but it is anything but crazy. Their life philosophy is full of sense. Especially in today’s world.

You were born and raised in Paris and you are back in the French capital. From a photographer’s eyes and from that of a Parisian how do you see it has changed?

Paris changes a lot, but so does any big city within a few years… Sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. (The most impressive one was Shanghai actually)

I started really appreciating Paris when I was 16 years old. I was just coming back from living for three years in the US where my father worked. (Charlottesville, VA, to be precise) Living in an extremely different place helped me to fully realise how much I appreciated it.

Coming back this second time felt weird… I left around 24 years old and came back after 9 years. My memories from Paris were childhood and student years. I built myself as an adult mostly abroad. That affects a lot my perception of Paris, or France as a matter of fact. Although it feels familiar, I need to explore it like it was completely new.

I’ll tell you one thing that is bugging me from a photographer’s eye: that Plexiglas wall they put all around the Eiffel Tower! I never go there (and even less photograph it! Haha), but the few times I did go, I remember really enjoying spending time on the grass with friends in the Champs de Mars garden and walking freely under the tower. Now, this historical landscape is destroyed and some views of the tower have become history.

But thankfully, Paris is still beautiful, with its pavements, it’s old buildings, cafes, the sound of the coffee cups clinging in the Brasseries, the street lamps, the smell of fresh bread. It’s very stereotypical but those things gave me comfort every time I come back to France for a short stay. Those things are still here. But all of that is best enjoyed when there is no lockdown…

The grey weather is also a big no-no. That, I wouldn’t mind changing!!

France is making headlines across the world these days following the beheading of a teacher in a Paris suburb and the stabbings at a church in Nice. Is there in your view a midpoint between freedom of expression and respect for other cultures and ways of life?

I am a firm defender of freedom of speech and freedom of thought as a basic human right.

I do find it important to respect others’ cultures and ways of life, definitely, as long as it does not put people in danger. Some cultures and practices (including in my own country) are so old that they have become an argument to defend some atrocities, because “it’s always been like that” or “it’s tradition”. It is not because customs, systems, or institutions have been in place for a long time that they are doing the right thing. Human rights, respect of others and even other species, not just humans as a matter of fact, to my eyes, must be a priority before any belief, custom or tradition.

In the case of freedom of speech – I think fundamental respect should be applied to individuals evidently, but institutions, officials, personalities, symbols, ideas, behaviours: pretty much anything ever created and invented by humans, should always be open to criticism, caricature and mockery. This is a fundamental need for a society and its evolution.

As a woman, and especially as a gay woman, I feel quite offended for example by a lot of what most religions or conservative parties say and the values they defend. Does that mean I want to destroy them and that I consider all their followers disrespectful and horrible? Not at all. Do I think some of the things they say are horrible and can be dangerous to human rights when they try to impose their beliefs and practices to larger scales? Absolutely. And they should be stopped when that happens.

I am a firm defender of freedom, as long as that freedom does not harm others. And by harm I don’t mean offend them in their values, I mean as long as it does not violate their own freedom or abuses them and their fundamental rights in any kind of way.

I do not consider the fact of “being offended” as harming. If you want nobody to be offended, then you have to stop everything altogether. Everything you say, everything you do. There will always be someone who does not agree with you and feels offended. No matter how hard you try.

The caricatures that were shown by Samuel Paty, have already cost so many lives. They were not mocking Islam or its followers but criticising the horrors done in the name of religion. The saddest part, in this case, is that he wasn’t showing it to promote or denounce anything, he was using it as education material in a civics class. The Charlie Hebdo trial has started and it makes even more sense to show children why so many people died because of… drawings. We must be able to open a debate without risking our life.

My mother was a teacher, I could never imagine such a thing happening in the school system. School is the place to open such debates, to ask questions; it is where the future generations can learn and start forming their own opinion. What happened highly disgusts me, and sadly doesn’t surprise me so much.

Diversity is what makes our societies extremely rich. But it also means we have to coexist. With such diversity, everyone is going to be offended or shocked by someone else at some point. So?